Amount of Time to Go Through All 12 Tones

Comments and questions about AP Avenue.
zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:26 pm

I know my above post if very long, and I'm wary of saying anything else before Chris gets a chance to read it (I know he's pressed for time and can't often reply to long posts), but this is on a somewhat unrelated note and doesn't require a reply.

I recently spoke with a non-musician psychologist, much like Chris, on the topic of perfect pitch. It was a very eye-opening experience, as it made me realize just how much Chris has learned about perfect pitch during his research, and how many common misconceptions he has had to overcome. As hard as I tried to explain perfect pitch to this man, he remained skeptical of what I was saying, as any self-respecting psychologist should, lacking any scientific knowledge on the subject and without any proof of what was being said. Also, a lot of my "proof" was quoting personal experience -- statistically insignificant data.

Speaking with a non-musician, it's very hard to make them understand perfect pitch. A lifetime of growing up with individuals who possess the ability, and you begin to learn what they can and can't do. There are some things I take for granted that seem totally implausible to a non-musician, especially a psychologist non-musician. For example, that people either have perfect pitch or they don't. You can't "kind of" have it. But at the same time, there are varying levels of perfect pitch. To the psychologist that I spoke to, this seemed like a contradiction. Thinking of chroma as separate from height was also quite a stretch for him. Hell, chroma itself was a stretch.

Anyways, I'd like to thank Chris for all the research he's done. After having this conversation, I've realized how impressive the conclusions he has reached are. I'm certainly unique in that I'm acquainted with 20-25 local perfect pitchers, and what Chris has discovered so far agrees with my personal experience with the ability.

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:46 pm

For lorelei: I've been wondering about how people with absolute pitch experience what we call "relative pitch" or more accurately, the recognition of intervals between notes.

In my experience, though people with relative pitch can train themselves to identify intervals with great speed, musicians with absolute pitch are always naturally faster and require significantly less training to identify intervals with speed, if they require any training at all. This is one mystery I still don't know the answer to...

Lorelei, if you listen to a contrapuntal piece of music with two voices, as the two lines of melody play together are you able to recognize all the intervals they make as they play them?

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:54 pm

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Last edited by zacxpacx on Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:23 am, edited 3 times in total.

lorelei
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Postby lorelei » Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:45 pm

I've been wondering about how people with absolute pitch experience what we call "relative pitch" or more accurately, the recognition of intervals between notes.

Well, that's a bit tricky... certainly I do perceive intervals, but I'm not sure how much of it is absolute pitch and then calculation vs. the actual perception of the intervals. Intervals do definitely have their own sounds, like I said, but trying to sift through how much of it is relative pitch as you perceive it. Certainly the AP does help the RP function become faster, I think.
Lorelei, if you listen to a contrapuntal piece of music with two voices, as the two lines of melody play together are you able to recognize all the intervals they make as they play them?

I do hear the intervals, I suppose. If you asked me to name intervals in it, I could do it, yes. However, it's not what I usually listen for in a piece... I would try to hear the lines and how they interact harmonically or something... :)

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:22 pm

lorelei wrote:I do hear the intervals, I suppose. If you asked me to name intervals in it, I could do it, yes. However, it's not what I usually listen for in a piece... I would try to hear the lines and how they interact harmonically or something... :)


I know it's not natural for someone to identify all the intervals when two melodies are playing. Anyone would have to consciously think of the names of the intervals. Generally though, I find that people with relative pitch can't keep up with the melody lines while people with perfect pitch can, even if naming all the intervals feels "unnatural". It's just a matter of what's possible.

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:27 am

For Chris: Any thoughts on using the "chroma button" for perceptual differentiation? I feel it more closely resembles how a child would naturally learn perfect pitch from exploration on the piano.

What next step have you been planning on taking other than using loci?

I haven't actually looked at any of the literature regarding loci so I'm not sure exactly what context they must be observed in, but it seems like a small modification to APA would suffice. I'd like to know how you plan to use loci.

And finally, will your perfect pitch work resume only once you've received your PhD? If all goes according to plan and no unforeseen problems rear their heads, around which month will you be wrapping up?

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:04 pm

Chris, could you just let me know if you plan on answering my questions and haven't found the time yet? Or if there's some other extenuating circumstance? I'd really like to have your input on this.

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:27 am

A matter of time, I fear.

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:36 am

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Last edited by zacxpacx on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

aruffo
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Postby aruffo » Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:58 am

With the enthusiasm you've mustered, you may want to start looking more deeply at the scientific literature for answers to your questions--!

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:59 pm

That's fine. I can be patient. As long as I know you'll respond when you find the time and that I'm not a victim of neglect. :)

Re-reading some of your research in the meantime to jog my memory.

Adding to my pile of questions in this thread...

In your research, Chris, you say:
1. Chroma isolation is required to make an absolute judgment of musical frequency.

This ability seems to be what's lost after the supposed critical period. When a child is naive about what he's meant to be listening for and how he's expected to interpret music, using absolute chroma to interpret musical sound could be no more difficult or peculiar than listening for traditional tonal relationships. An adult has learned to integrate and ignore chroma to make relative pitch judgments.

Absolute Pitch Blaster, by a perceptual differentiation strategy, teaches chroma isolation. One down, two to go.


In general, I agree with everything you have to say in that quote. There is just one thing that concerns me. If chroma isolation is the missing piece of the puzzle -- between child vs. adult -- and is lost after the critical period, then after an adult has undergone perceptual differentiation to hear chroma, why can't he undergo the same processes that a child would undergo to learn perfect pitch?

The difference between the adult and the child is that the child can use chroma as a completely viable listening strategy, not favoring a height strategy over it. An adult has learned to integrate chroma into his overall perception of sound and favors height. However, using APA, an adult should be able to level the playing field -- so to say.

You suggest that perception of chroma is what's lost after the critical period. By replacing what is lost via APA, the adult should be able to use a method such as WHaP or Eguchi Chords to develop categorical perception of chroma and learn perfect pitch, just as a child does. That is unless chroma isolation isn't the only thing that is lost in the critical period... Or we aren't effectively isolating chroma... What we can conclude for certain is that chroma isolation is not the only difference between before and after the critical period. There's something more to it.

Here's a representation of what I'm saying.

If for children:
Chroma Isolation + WHaP == Perfect Pitch (including categorical chroma perception)
Chroma Isolation + Eguchi == Perfect Pitch (including categorical chroma perception)

Why for adults:
Chroma Isolation + WHaP =/= Perfect Pitch or Categorical Chroma Perception
Chroma Isolation + Eguchi =/= Perfect Pitch or Categorical Chroma Perception

EDIT: I do plan on looking into scientific literature on my own, but it seems a daunting task I haven't had time for as of yet. Not to mention I'd probably need some guidance. As soon as you have your PhD wrapped up, I'll feel more comfortable diving into the dense mess of psychology literature.

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:07 pm

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Last edited by zacxpacx on Fri Mar 08, 2013 2:42 am, edited 4 times in total.

cjhealey
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Postby cjhealey » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:02 pm

Zacpacx, not nearly as daunting as you might think. Find a database search (Or just use google), enter your keywords and read the abstracts of anything that seems of interest. If it is promising skim the whole thing for relevant points.

Also, Chris has a huge biographical list of AP literature on the site. Just go to the bibliography.

See you in a couple of years! ;)

zacxpacx
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Postby zacxpacx » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:47 pm

Going a little off-topic here, but I had an idea for APA.

All my APA training is done with all the random instruments the game has to offer. Recently, however, I've realized this isn't necessarily the most challenging way for me to play the game. I have some "trouble" instruments that are particularly hard for me to identify (ex. the timpani). It's hard to tell which instrument you're hearing when you hit a "trouble" one, but I have a handful that I know are especially difficult for me. A couple days ago I played APA with randomized instruments only using the "trouble" instruments. By the end of the day I no long had an issue with them.

Right now when I run into a trouble instrument, I click the egg and I'm unable to hear the chroma. What I'd like to be able to do is compare the sound with another egg that I can hear the chroma in and let perceptual differentiation do its work. But the egg sound changes when I re-click it. Instead, I have to just click the egg until I get an instrument I don't have an issue with.

My suggestion for APA: Every batch of six eggs should come with randomized instruments, but they should be fixed for that particular batch and not change until all six chicks have crossed the street and a new batch is received. That way, when one particular timbre is difficult, the player has a chance to compare it to other timbres he or she has no trouble with and extract the chroma.

pianoforte
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Postby pianoforte » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:07 pm

@zacxpacx

Really? Do you mean that you've finished all of the tones? I'm impressed if so.

How developed are your absolute pitch skills now? Can you recognize the notes in a piece of music? Do you also recognize the key signature?


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